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	<title>Comments on: Mortality salience for atheists</title>
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	<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/mortality-salience-for-atheists</link>
	<description>random thoughts of a western buddhist</description>
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		<title>By: bodhipaksa</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/mortality-salience-for-atheists/comment-page-1#comment-69410</link>
		<dc:creator>bodhipaksa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1649#comment-69410</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting, Shawn, that sense of something being &quot;far-fetched.&quot; Sometimes of course it&#039;s right and it helps us to probe deeper into results that just don&#039;t look quite right. Other times it&#039;s just that our preconceptions have been assaulted. By coincidence, &lt;a href=&quot;http://twitter.com/rogerhyam/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Roger Hyam&lt;/a&gt; posted a link on Twitter to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.badscience.net/2009/04/umm-warning-research-may-challenge-your-assumptions/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Guardian article&lt;/a&gt; that starts with the following:

&quot;If there is one great joy to be derived from scanning the scientific literature over a week, it is the barrage of studies that challenge your beliefs and preconceptions, demonstrating the weakness of intuition: because if we knew all the answers to start with, there’d be no point in doing research.&quot;

I don&#039;t think we should ignore intuition, because it can be useful, but in this particular case my own &quot;spidey senses&quot; aren&#039;t tingling. Perhaps that&#039;s because I&#039;ve read some of the other stories about mortality salience. It&#039;s a very interesting field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s interesting, Shawn, that sense of something being &#8220;far-fetched.&#8221; Sometimes of course it&#8217;s right and it helps us to probe deeper into results that just don&#8217;t look quite right. Other times it&#8217;s just that our preconceptions have been assaulted. By coincidence, <a href="http://twitter.com/rogerhyam/" rel="nofollow">Roger Hyam</a> posted a link on Twitter to a <a href="http://www.badscience.net/2009/04/umm-warning-research-may-challenge-your-assumptions/" rel="nofollow">Guardian article</a> that starts with the following:</p>
<p>&#8220;If there is one great joy to be derived from scanning the scientific literature over a week, it is the barrage of studies that challenge your beliefs and preconceptions, demonstrating the weakness of intuition: because if we knew all the answers to start with, there’d be no point in doing research.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we should ignore intuition, because it can be useful, but in this particular case my own &#8220;spidey senses&#8221; aren&#8217;t tingling. Perhaps that&#8217;s because I&#8217;ve read some of the other stories about mortality salience. It&#8217;s a very interesting field.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn M</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/mortality-salience-for-atheists/comment-page-1#comment-69363</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 01:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1649#comment-69363</guid>
		<description>I was merely suggesting that the connection made between &quot;progress&quot; and &quot;death&quot; seems, although accurate within this study, a bit far-fetched in my opinion. And there possibly are some blind variables that help make this connection. 


 Whether or not Climate change is a taking place, or if it exists at all, (honestly, I no one can honestly KNOW, because if we KNEW we would already being doing something about it), it still makes sense not to pollute and hurt this planet. I was not playing the blame game, nor would it make sense because I hold my own skepticism on the subject. 


However, I do agree with most of you conclusions. Although due to some misunderstandings and foggy connections, I assumed that the concept of progress what directly related to progress on an economic level.  It is essentially correct, we have come - what appears to be - miles from where we have started. Yet, we still seem to be facing some of the same core frustrations about your existential &quot;self&#039;s.&quot; But as soon as we are able to accept our death, our existence will shift for the better (which I believe was the point you were trying to expose.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was merely suggesting that the connection made between &#8220;progress&#8221; and &#8220;death&#8221; seems, although accurate within this study, a bit far-fetched in my opinion. And there possibly are some blind variables that help make this connection. </p>
<p> Whether or not Climate change is a taking place, or if it exists at all, (honestly, I no one can honestly KNOW, because if we KNEW we would already being doing something about it), it still makes sense not to pollute and hurt this planet. I was not playing the blame game, nor would it make sense because I hold my own skepticism on the subject. </p>
<p>However, I do agree with most of you conclusions. Although due to some misunderstandings and foggy connections, I assumed that the concept of progress what directly related to progress on an economic level.  It is essentially correct, we have come &#8211; what appears to be &#8211; miles from where we have started. Yet, we still seem to be facing some of the same core frustrations about your existential &#8220;self&#8217;s.&#8221; But as soon as we are able to accept our death, our existence will shift for the better (which I believe was the point you were trying to expose.)</p>
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		<title>By: bodhipaksa</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/mortality-salience-for-atheists/comment-page-1#comment-69343</link>
		<dc:creator>bodhipaksa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1649#comment-69343</guid>
		<description>Hi Shawn,

I&#039;m not sure what you find unclear about the evidence presented: &quot;people who were first asked to think about their own death were then less likely to agree with an essay claiming that progress is a myth&quot; seems straightforward enough, as does &quot;Alternatively, people who first read an essay claiming that progress is a myth were then more likely to think about their own death.&quot;

I didn&#039;t anywhere suggest that we don&#039;t need genuine progress (whether political, material, environmental, etc), which is what you seem to be think I&#039;m putting forward. What I&#039;m suggesting is that much of what we call &quot;progress&quot; isn&#039;t actually progress at all. To take your point about Ethiopian children (and by that I presume you mean &quot;poor Ethiopian children&quot;) it&#039;s arguable that some of the drought that struck their country in the early 1980s and even last year was caused by &quot;progress&quot; in the developed world. We fly more and drive more, the climate changes, and they suffer. It&#039;s conceivable, in fact, that we as a species could &quot;progress&quot; our way to global catastrophe.

The &quot;discomfort&quot; I was talking about was not material discomfort, as I think you were suggesting, although it&#039;s not clear. I was talking about the existential discomfort of recognizing what&#039;s really happening in the world. The idea of &quot;progress&quot; may be comforting because it connects us to something bigger than ourselves and therefore gives our lives meaning, but as I&#039;ve already suggested, the idea of progress may well be an illusion. 

I&#039;m puzzled by your closing statements. China, per capita, produces a fraction of the greenhouse gases that the US does. Even as a whole, bearing in mind that they have a population three times that of the US, they produce only slightly more CO2 than the US. None of this is &quot;pointing fingers&quot; -- it&#039;s just recognizing what actually happens. Playing a blame game may also be comforting, but ultimately it&#039;s a distraction. Blaming developing nations is merely a way of diverting ourselves from doing what we can actually do to make things better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Shawn,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you find unclear about the evidence presented: &#8220;people who were first asked to think about their own death were then less likely to agree with an essay claiming that progress is a myth&#8221; seems straightforward enough, as does &#8220;Alternatively, people who first read an essay claiming that progress is a myth were then more likely to think about their own death.&#8221;</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t anywhere suggest that we don&#8217;t need genuine progress (whether political, material, environmental, etc), which is what you seem to be think I&#8217;m putting forward. What I&#8217;m suggesting is that much of what we call &#8220;progress&#8221; isn&#8217;t actually progress at all. To take your point about Ethiopian children (and by that I presume you mean &#8220;poor Ethiopian children&#8221;) it&#8217;s arguable that some of the drought that struck their country in the early 1980s and even last year was caused by &#8220;progress&#8221; in the developed world. We fly more and drive more, the climate changes, and they suffer. It&#8217;s conceivable, in fact, that we as a species could &#8220;progress&#8221; our way to global catastrophe.</p>
<p>The &#8220;discomfort&#8221; I was talking about was not material discomfort, as I think you were suggesting, although it&#8217;s not clear. I was talking about the existential discomfort of recognizing what&#8217;s really happening in the world. The idea of &#8220;progress&#8221; may be comforting because it connects us to something bigger than ourselves and therefore gives our lives meaning, but as I&#8217;ve already suggested, the idea of progress may well be an illusion. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m puzzled by your closing statements. China, per capita, produces a fraction of the greenhouse gases that the US does. Even as a whole, bearing in mind that they have a population three times that of the US, they produce only slightly more CO2 than the US. None of this is &#8220;pointing fingers&#8221; &#8212; it&#8217;s just recognizing what actually happens. Playing a blame game may also be comforting, but ultimately it&#8217;s a distraction. Blaming developing nations is merely a way of diverting ourselves from doing what we can actually do to make things better.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn M</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/mortality-salience-for-atheists/comment-page-1#comment-69310</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 04:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1649#comment-69310</guid>
		<description>Well, from the evidence that you provided, I don&#039;t believe that the study that you&#039;ve mentioned is completely valid in making a direct correlation between an economic and political philosophy, and thoughts about death. These are completely different subjects areas and, maybe its me, but the significant evidence seems to escape my eyes.   Although the Progressive movement was largely an American philosophy, I believe it can still be a strong contender for other third world nations as well. I&#039;m not implying that materialistic dependence will coincide with spiritual freedom, really it will be quite the opposite, but I would like to see someone tell Ethiopian children that what we need is more &quot;discomfort.&quot; Americans are saturated in material wealth, but not because of a progressive philosophy, but because they choice to &quot;worship&quot; these materials. The things we&#039;ve owned end up owning us. But things such as &quot;exterminating species, climate change and less efficient vehicles&quot;... all these things are more prevalent in less &quot;progressive countries.&quot; And if you even want to point fingers, China produces more green house gases than the United States by ten fold. I don&#039;t advocate America&#039;s unhealthy addiction of filling spiritual need with material wealth, but with all do respect, your conclusions seems a bit stretched in my eyes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, from the evidence that you provided, I don&#8217;t believe that the study that you&#8217;ve mentioned is completely valid in making a direct correlation between an economic and political philosophy, and thoughts about death. These are completely different subjects areas and, maybe its me, but the significant evidence seems to escape my eyes.   Although the Progressive movement was largely an American philosophy, I believe it can still be a strong contender for other third world nations as well. I&#8217;m not implying that materialistic dependence will coincide with spiritual freedom, really it will be quite the opposite, but I would like to see someone tell Ethiopian children that what we need is more &#8220;discomfort.&#8221; Americans are saturated in material wealth, but not because of a progressive philosophy, but because they choice to &#8220;worship&#8221; these materials. The things we&#8217;ve owned end up owning us. But things such as &#8220;exterminating species, climate change and less efficient vehicles&#8221;&#8230; all these things are more prevalent in less &#8220;progressive countries.&#8221; And if you even want to point fingers, China produces more green house gases than the United States by ten fold. I don&#8217;t advocate America&#8217;s unhealthy addiction of filling spiritual need with material wealth, but with all do respect, your conclusions seems a bit stretched in my eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: bodhipaksa</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/mortality-salience-for-atheists/comment-page-1#comment-68736</link>
		<dc:creator>bodhipaksa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1649#comment-68736</guid>
		<description>Hi Rob. There&#039;s a description of the Six Element meditation &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wildmind.org/six-elements&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. It&#039;s not that we&#039;re regarding any of the attachments as bad or good, but recognizing that fundamentally it&#039;s impossible to hold onto anything. Life flows. In the Element practice we take each of the elements in turn (earth, water, fire, air, space, consciousness) and reflect that each of them simply flows through &quot;us.&quot; We observe that we can&#039;t in fact hold on to the elements, and that there&#039;s no fixed &quot;us&quot; to hold on to the elements anyway. It&#039;s a very cool practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rob. There&#8217;s a description of the Six Element meditation <a href="http://www.wildmind.org/six-elements" rel="nofollow">here</a>. It&#8217;s not that we&#8217;re regarding any of the attachments as bad or good, but recognizing that fundamentally it&#8217;s impossible to hold onto anything. Life flows. In the Element practice we take each of the elements in turn (earth, water, fire, air, space, consciousness) and reflect that each of them simply flows through &#8220;us.&#8221; We observe that we can&#8217;t in fact hold on to the elements, and that there&#8217;s no fixed &#8220;us&#8221; to hold on to the elements anyway. It&#8217;s a very cool practice.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob R</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/mortality-salience-for-atheists/comment-page-1#comment-68734</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1649#comment-68734</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s about time you blogged about me!

I&#039;m a teetotaler though because the drunkards progress is what would probably happen to me when I start drinking.

The six element practice sounds interesting, but if I were to have any use for it, it would be modified not to let go of just any connections but rather to examine them, let go of the bad and strengthen the good.  Not knowing what those six elements are, I suppose my modification might not amount to all six of the elements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s about time you blogged about me!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a teetotaler though because the drunkards progress is what would probably happen to me when I start drinking.</p>
<p>The six element practice sounds interesting, but if I were to have any use for it, it would be modified not to let go of just any connections but rather to examine them, let go of the bad and strengthen the good.  Not knowing what those six elements are, I suppose my modification might not amount to all six of the elements.</p>
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