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	<title>Comments on: Would in vitro meat be vegetarian?</title>
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	<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian</link>
	<description>random thoughts of a western buddhist</description>
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		<title>By: bodhipaksa</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-72681</link>
		<dc:creator>bodhipaksa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-72681</guid>
		<description>I must say I&#039;m not convinced that eating meat stimulates the passions. Also I don&#039;t think I&#039;ve ever come across that notion in the Pali canon (which doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s no there), but only in later Buddhism. Maybe it&#039;s true, but I have my doubts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must say I&#8217;m not convinced that eating meat stimulates the passions. Also I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve ever come across that notion in the Pali canon (which doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s no there), but only in later Buddhism. Maybe it&#8217;s true, but I have my doubts.</p>
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		<title>By: blip</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-72513</link>
		<dc:creator>blip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 04:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-72513</guid>
		<description>An interesting thread.  I don&#039;t think there are any immediately troubling ethical issues surrounding invitro-meat (IVM).  In fact, if those motivated by taste rather than ethics switched to IVM instead of creating demand for the slaughter of billions of sentient beings, then there would have to be a profoundly positive ethical impact by any measure - not just a utilitarian view.

But this isn&#039;t the only consideration for someone seeking spiritual progress.  Meat, we&#039;re told, is part of the class of foods that stimulates the passions, thus unsettling rather than calming the mind.  Given the need to still the mind in pursuing spiritual goals, even IVM would be counterproductive.  This the reason why some traditions forego garlic and onion - not for any ethical reason, but for spiritual reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting thread.  I don&#8217;t think there are any immediately troubling ethical issues surrounding invitro-meat (IVM).  In fact, if those motivated by taste rather than ethics switched to IVM instead of creating demand for the slaughter of billions of sentient beings, then there would have to be a profoundly positive ethical impact by any measure &#8211; not just a utilitarian view.</p>
<p>But this isn&#8217;t the only consideration for someone seeking spiritual progress.  Meat, we&#8217;re told, is part of the class of foods that stimulates the passions, thus unsettling rather than calming the mind.  Given the need to still the mind in pursuing spiritual goals, even IVM would be counterproductive.  This the reason why some traditions forego garlic and onion &#8211; not for any ethical reason, but for spiritual reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: bodhipaksa</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-70211</link>
		<dc:creator>bodhipaksa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-70211</guid>
		<description>Well if I had a choice I&#039;d say it&#039;s better to avoid making an animal suffer &lt;em&gt;and also&lt;/em&gt; to avoid food produced by large corporations. Much of the food supply is already controlled by a few huge corporations, who contribute to our ill health by stuffing food with far, sugar, and salt, and who ensure that we eat an ever-narrower range of food-stuffs. They&#039;re impossible to avoid of course. I don&#039;t eat breakfast cereals, for example, and instead make my own bread -- but who ultimately owns the company that makes the flour? It may be Nestle, for all I know. But at least I know that the flour is just flour. Purely in terms of my health I feel good about that.

When it comes to eating conventional meat, I&#039;d say there&#039;s a strong moral imperative involved because of the direct nature of the harm caused (the meat is the dead body of an animal). On the other hand, arguments based on whether food is highly processed or is made by large corporations involve weaker moral imperatives because the issues are more diffuse and the harm more indirect. I don&#039;t think that means that those secondary moral considerations aren&#039;t important, just that I think that in general they shouldn&#039;t trump the first ones. I think it would be better, for example, for people who insist on eating meat, if they were to eat factory made in-vitro meat produced by a large corporation rather than the body of a slaughtered animal, whatever the status of the company that grew, slaughtered, and marketed the flesh (and of course in many cases that would be another large corporation).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well if I had a choice I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s better to avoid making an animal suffer <em>and also</em> to avoid food produced by large corporations. Much of the food supply is already controlled by a few huge corporations, who contribute to our ill health by stuffing food with far, sugar, and salt, and who ensure that we eat an ever-narrower range of food-stuffs. They&#8217;re impossible to avoid of course. I don&#8217;t eat breakfast cereals, for example, and instead make my own bread &#8212; but who ultimately owns the company that makes the flour? It may be Nestle, for all I know. But at least I know that the flour is just flour. Purely in terms of my health I feel good about that.</p>
<p>When it comes to eating conventional meat, I&#8217;d say there&#8217;s a strong moral imperative involved because of the direct nature of the harm caused (the meat is the dead body of an animal). On the other hand, arguments based on whether food is highly processed or is made by large corporations involve weaker moral imperatives because the issues are more diffuse and the harm more indirect. I don&#8217;t think that means that those secondary moral considerations aren&#8217;t important, just that I think that in general they shouldn&#8217;t trump the first ones. I think it would be better, for example, for people who insist on eating meat, if they were to eat factory made in-vitro meat produced by a large corporation rather than the body of a slaughtered animal, whatever the status of the company that grew, slaughtered, and marketed the flesh (and of course in many cases that would be another large corporation).</p>
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		<title>By: Woody Gilk</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-70209</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody Gilk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-70209</guid>
		<description>After a month, I think I finally have a second response:

The main problem with vitro meat is &quot;who owns it?&quot; The answer is probably that some company has created a patented manufacturing process. So by replacing the farmer with the corporation, we lose more control over our food to a profit-generating machine. This will, by the nature of the profit-generating machine, lead to large-scale suffering. Is it a good idea to replace the suffering of an animal worth the suffering caused by a corporation (think pollution, plastics, outsourcing, genetic tampering, lobbying, etc)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After a month, I think I finally have a second response:</p>
<p>The main problem with vitro meat is &#8220;who owns it?&#8221; The answer is probably that some company has created a patented manufacturing process. So by replacing the farmer with the corporation, we lose more control over our food to a profit-generating machine. This will, by the nature of the profit-generating machine, lead to large-scale suffering. Is it a good idea to replace the suffering of an animal worth the suffering caused by a corporation (think pollution, plastics, outsourcing, genetic tampering, lobbying, etc)?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob R</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-67905</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 01:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-67905</guid>
		<description>No argument.  Just wondering what you&#039;d think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No argument.  Just wondering what you&#8217;d think.</p>
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		<title>By: bodhipaksa</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-67901</link>
		<dc:creator>bodhipaksa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 01:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-67901</guid>
		<description>Hi Bob,

You make a rather peculiar argument. When we create a demand for meat, animals are bred to fill that demand. They&#039;re raised on farms, transported, slaughtered, butchered, and sold as meat. When we don&#039;t eat meat, fewer animals are bred, raised, etc. So the alternatives for the animals are not &quot;be slaughtered or be ripped apart by wild animals&quot; but &quot;be slaughtered or don&#039;t come into existence.&quot; A non-existent animal won&#039;t suffer. There&#039;s therefore less suffering caused by our actions when we don&#039;t eat meat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bob,</p>
<p>You make a rather peculiar argument. When we create a demand for meat, animals are bred to fill that demand. They&#8217;re raised on farms, transported, slaughtered, butchered, and sold as meat. When we don&#8217;t eat meat, fewer animals are bred, raised, etc. So the alternatives for the animals are not &#8220;be slaughtered or be ripped apart by wild animals&#8221; but &#8220;be slaughtered or don&#8217;t come into existence.&#8221; A non-existent animal won&#8217;t suffer. There&#8217;s therefore less suffering caused by our actions when we don&#8217;t eat meat.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob R</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-67889</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-67889</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious as to how you&#039;d respond to this.  lets leave aside the fact that more animals means more suffering and death (simply because they will all die).  Also, lets leave aside the environmental issues (Not saying these are not important, I just want to probe a line of thinking).  And lets say we are talking about a farm that raises free range animals (like in the &quot;happy cows&quot; commercial).

Do we really increase suffering simply by eating meat?  I would suggest that an animal may be given a less painful death in a slaughter house (one that took measures to make it as quick and painless as possible) then it would if it were just to die of disease in nature or be ripped apart by predators.  I would think that from the Buddhist perspective, by not eating meat (if ignoring factors mentioned mentioned above), you aren&#039;t really reducing the suffering and death in the world, you just aren&#039;t involved in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious as to how you&#8217;d respond to this.  lets leave aside the fact that more animals means more suffering and death (simply because they will all die).  Also, lets leave aside the environmental issues (Not saying these are not important, I just want to probe a line of thinking).  And lets say we are talking about a farm that raises free range animals (like in the &#8220;happy cows&#8221; commercial).</p>
<p>Do we really increase suffering simply by eating meat?  I would suggest that an animal may be given a less painful death in a slaughter house (one that took measures to make it as quick and painless as possible) then it would if it were just to die of disease in nature or be ripped apart by predators.  I would think that from the Buddhist perspective, by not eating meat (if ignoring factors mentioned mentioned above), you aren&#8217;t really reducing the suffering and death in the world, you just aren&#8217;t involved in it.</p>
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		<title>By: bodhipaksa</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-67680</link>
		<dc:creator>bodhipaksa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-67680</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;m a vegetarian, and I have a conscience, and I sometimes eat Quorn, which is made in a lab, as is tofu. So do many other vegetarians who are in possession of a fully functioning conscience. I also ingest other products that can be made only in a lab as well, from antibiotics to Lipitor. Artificiality does not amount to immorality. And disgust does not equate to morality.

I don&#039;t actually have any figures to hand regarding how much energy it would take to grow in vitro meat, so I&#039;m not in a position to make a comparison. The comparison would have to take into account all inputs involved in producing both types of food. But the true comparison would not be between in vitro meat and &quot;growing a vegetable&quot;, but between various kinds of high-protein vegetarian food, such as Quorn, tofu, and textured vegetable protein.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m a vegetarian, and I have a conscience, and I sometimes eat Quorn, which is made in a lab, as is tofu. So do many other vegetarians who are in possession of a fully functioning conscience. I also ingest other products that can be made only in a lab as well, from antibiotics to Lipitor. Artificiality does not amount to immorality. And disgust does not equate to morality.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t actually have any figures to hand regarding how much energy it would take to grow in vitro meat, so I&#8217;m not in a position to make a comparison. The comparison would have to take into account all inputs involved in producing both types of food. But the true comparison would not be between in vitro meat and &#8220;growing a vegetable&#8221;, but between various kinds of high-protein vegetarian food, such as Quorn, tofu, and textured vegetable protein.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody Gilk</title>
		<link>http://www.bodhipaksa.com/archives/would-in-vitro-meat-be-vegetarian/comment-page-1#comment-67678</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody Gilk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bodhipaksa.com/?p=1604#comment-67678</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have an answer to your question, but for me, it raises a different question: What vegetarian with a conscious would find it morally acceptable to eat anything that can only be produced in a lab? Either way, it takes far more energy than growing a vegetable... The point is not to replace killing animals with a process that does not kill animals, the point is to reduce our energy consumption and be healthier.

Personally, I find the entire idea of eating in-vitro meat totally repulsive. Even if it had the same texture and flavor, knowing that it was &quot;grown&quot; in a tube would ruin the whole experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have an answer to your question, but for me, it raises a different question: What vegetarian with a conscious would find it morally acceptable to eat anything that can only be produced in a lab? Either way, it takes far more energy than growing a vegetable&#8230; The point is not to replace killing animals with a process that does not kill animals, the point is to reduce our energy consumption and be healthier.</p>
<p>Personally, I find the entire idea of eating in-vitro meat totally repulsive. Even if it had the same texture and flavor, knowing that it was &#8220;grown&#8221; in a tube would ruin the whole experience.</p>
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